Grant Cornwell
Description: Grant Cornwell is a Professor of Philosophy and the 15th President of Rollins College. A nationally recognized advocate for liberal arts education, his work explores global citizenship, diversity, freedom, and democracy within the context of higher education. In this episode, we explore the ongoing debates around freedom of inquiry on college campuses, the essential role of a liberal arts education in preparing students for a complex world, and how universities can maintain their core mission amidst political and social pressures.
Websites:
Publications:
Articles:
Cornwell Joins Nationwide “Call for Constructive Engagement
Politicians Don’t Decide College Curriculums
Speaking Out Against Trump’s Higher-Ed Attacks
Mentions:
Show Notes:
[0:03] Introduction to Freedom of Inquiry
[1:41] Critiques of University Ideology
[4:39] Understanding Political Influence
[7:15] Historical Context of Academic Freedom
[9:08] Safe Spaces vs. Critical Thinking
[12:05] Encouraging Diverse Perspectives in Class
[15:50] The Role of Government in Education
[19:22] Embracing Identity and Diversity
[24:02] The Challenge of Changing Minds
[25:42] Navigating Post-COVID Student Mental Health
[28:04] The University of Chicago Model
[32:44] The Importance of Institutional Neutrality
[34:26] Addressing Funding and Academic Freedom
[38:21] The Value of Higher Education
[42:13] The Broader Impact of Education
[46:13] Exploring Liberal Education's Benefits
[51:13] Preparing Students for Global Challenges
[53:01] Understanding Global Power Shifts
[59:04] Fostering a Factual-Based Worldview
[1:05:06] The Role of Curiosity in Education
[1:08:38] Hope for the Future of Academia
[1:11:36] Advice for First-Year Students
Unedited AI Generated Transcript:
Brent Valentine (00:00)
Welcome President Grant Cornwell. Thank you for coming on today.
Grant Cornwell (00:04)
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Thanks for having me.
Keller Kramer (00:08)
To start off, in your opinion, do you think universities in America are still a place of freedom of inquiry and expression?
Grant Cornwell (00:15)
Well, Keller, that is a very hot question today, very hot, ⁓ because I do, and they have to be. ⁓ To the extent that universities aren't places of free inquiry and free expression, they really stop being universities, right? And there's couple things to say about that, and they come from different directions, but they join in the middle. So on the one hand, universities have been under critique.
of being places where there's a kind of ideological doxa where there isn't freedom of inquiry and expression because everybody has to think the same way or they're canceled, right? That is a critique that's out there and I want to comment on that. Now, in its wisdom, know, state and federal governments are deciding that the cure for that is for them to stipulate what can be taught and how it can be taught. And so to the extent that that
takes root and actually has impact, there also is a very serious threat to freedom of inquiry and freedom of expression. So let me take the first part.
You know?
Mostly it's politicians and media pundits who talk about campuses being, you know, ⁓
were thought as policed to kind of be liberal, left leaning and not, and no other ideas are entertained. ⁓ I don't think that those critiques, those who make those critiques, I don't think they've ever been in front of a college class. Cause I'll tell you right now, you know, when I am teaching or when my faculty are teaching, you know, we don't see college students as a blank slate that we can just write on with our ideas. Right? I mean, college students,
arrive in the classroom with their own ideas and their own critical thinking acumen. And if they don't sort of see the world the way the professor does, then they can and should share their views. And that's what a college classroom is. And if it's not, that's a problem. You know, and I'm not saying there aren't places where that is a problem. But for the most part, ⁓ you know, the problem with a critique of indoctrination,
is college students, I know them, are not very indoctrinatable, right? I mean, they show up. ⁓ So that's the one critique. The other thing going on though really has me deeply concerned because the American university is the greatest production, is the greatest engine of knowledge production that humanity has ever seen. I'll just put that out there, right? In the history of humanity, there's been nothing like the American university.
in terms of ⁓ innovation, research, ⁓ outstanding student centered teaching. And the fundamental principle of that whole system is freedom of inquiry, freedom of expression, and that professors don't teach what will please the president or the dean or the board of trustees. And they certainly don't teach what will please the governor or the president of the United States. They teach what they think is true.
And they introduce students to material that they think is important based upon their scholarly expertise in the discipline. And we have to protect that freedom of professors to teach from the point of scholarly expertise in the discipline. ⁓ know, there are other regimes throughout history in the world where the universities really just were a site of state dogma, right? The only thing that could be taught
was what the state sanctioned. That is a positively un-American idea. And yet that's what's going on right now. When you have the federal government policing what can be taught and can't be taught and using federal funding as ⁓ a cudgel to police what is taught and how it's taught, that's a profoundly disturbing threat. And ⁓ I think that that is going on right now.
Brent Valentine (04:40)
Yeah, it certainly is a big threat right now. But I do, I think a lot of the threat is like an overreaction to some elements that are true within the university where we see faculty predominantly left-wing. We see ideas get get spread that are predominantly left-wing. And I think a lot of it is still based in the academic literature.
But is there an element of the academic literature that self promotes left-wing ideologies?
Grant Cornwell (05:15)
Yeah, Bren, I think that's a really fair thing to say. And as a professor of philosophy and therefore sort of someone that's always been interested in rhetoric ever since Aristotle, one of the first rules of rhetoric is you need to concede where your opponent is right. You need to own up to it. You need to be accountable for, okay, you've got a point there. And I think there is a point to what you're saying. I think that there are...
Kind of interesting sociological and cultural reasons why professors maybe tend towards more liberal ideologies. ⁓ But I don't think that you, know, anytime that appears in the classroom in a way that a student feels like they have to tow the line because their grades on the line, that's just plain old bad teaching. I mean, that person is not being
is not being true to their professional ethics at that point. That professor is not being true to their professional ethics at that point. And good professors will set a table of ideas out and they will help students enter deeply into those ideas and examine them and explore them and turn them around and turn them over. ⁓ And then the job of the professor is help students to form their own views that are rigorous.
and evidence-based. And does that happen 100 % of the time? No, it does not. But this is something that we should sort out inside higher ed. This isn't something that the government intervention is ever going to be able to fix. So I think that the right answer is we need to own it on campus. ⁓ We need to have open discussion about it. We need to invite students into that discussion.
And, you know, the government needs to stay the hell out.
Keller Kramer (07:16)
And in the broader context of the American college university system within the relationship to government, is what we're seeing now unprecedented? it something that we haven't seen to this scale before? Or is it something that we're just seeing in a new light that we've worked through already in the past?
Grant Cornwell (07:38)
Well, we have seen it another time in history. ⁓ And it's called the McCarthy era because presidents were, mean, sorry, professors were called out for being communist. And if you were communist, you know, you were canceled big time, like maybe arrested, you know. ⁓ And so that is a reference point in history. And honestly, that's a very dark chapter of history.
That's a very dark chapter of American history and it's a very dark chapter of history of the matter American Academy. ⁓ know, I'll just say it. I hope we do have some communists on the faculty and I hope we have some libertarians and Republicans and conservatives and liberals. ⁓ Actually, you know, I communism is a body of thought and it's a body of practice and
⁓ It's a way that a lot of the world has organized itself, ⁓ you know, in recent history, and students need to understand that. They need to know that history, they need to know what the hell communism is. know, Marx is a really good read. And that's part of being educated and sophisticated and able to enter public life, knowing what the hell you're talking about. So, ⁓ yeah. So it has happened before.
And ⁓ I certainly hope it doesn't go to that length right now.
Brent Valentine (09:08)
Yeah, I think we can all hope that. I think one of the other major critiques, predominantly from the conservatives towards higher education has been this trend where higher education tries to preserve emotional comfort and not push people to think differently or inquire into different ideologies. So how do you think that
preservation of or like support of emotional comfort, quote unquote, or like safe spaces kind of stifles critical thinking or like true diversity of thought.
Grant Cornwell (09:45)
Yeah. I guess the first thing I would say is a classroom is not an intellectually safe space. mean, that safe spaces ought to be of venues where therapy happens and teaching is not therapy. ⁓ know, classrooms are arenas for the contest of ideas and some of those ideas are unsettling.
Some of those ideas ought to be unsettling. And to the extent that faculty have to make sure that students aren't made uncomfortable, you know, they're out of a job. ⁓ This idea that that's been going around that somehow ⁓ faculty shouldn't be teaching divisive concepts. You know, people who advocate for that have never actually read literature or history because, you know, books are full of divisive concepts.
And engaging them is where learning takes place. Like that's, that's kind of the point is to engage ideas that you haven't encountered before. And they kind of shake your world and you're asked to take them seriously. You're not asked to adopt them. You're asked to critique them and see if there's truth in there that you need to take account of. ⁓ but the idea of a classroom was a safe space. ⁓ I, yeah, I mean, we went through a period where
⁓ Faculty felt obliged to give trigger warnings, like we're now going to encounter some ideas that ⁓ some might find unsettling. You know, and in some cases that's called for because if you're teaching very ⁓ sensitive or disturbing material and there's a legitimate reason to teach it, I mean, it's only fair and compassionate to say, hey, this could be tough and I just want you to know that, you know, and if it's too tough or if you have something in your personal history where, you know, where this is going to really
⁓ be unsettling for you, then you know, let's talk about that. But I think that whole trend has kind of run its course and I now think that faculty just see it as part of their professional ethics of teaching what they think is important and true and also bringing students in on the, you know, on the story.
Keller Kramer (12:06)
And what are some ways to, I guess, encourage professors to take on that philosophy to teach? Because I would say, like, in my experience, I don't think many of my teachers have that approach to teaching, especially one of my majors is international relations. It's a lot of politics classes. A lot of my teachers will dismiss more conservative ideas as wrong from the onset of the class. And not to say that
It's just related to ideas of concern that can be pushing the boundaries. But I think there's a comfort even from the professors to kind of establish a sideness or an ideology within the class to begin. ⁓ And I think it can be hard for them to establish a rapport sometimes without doing that. If they come in and they start to push students too early, then the students can kind of disengage.
Grant Cornwell (12:47)
Yeah.
Keller Kramer (13:03)
I don't know what the answer is, but have you seen in your classrooms and in your university ways of balancing that where there is a trust that they're pushing them, but it's not enough way to dishearten them, but it would actually make them intellectually more capable.
Grant Cornwell (13:18)
Yeah, Keller. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a thank you for that sort of honest account of your experience. ⁓ Again, I don't, I don't want to be critical of the professors you're talking about. But that's just bad teaching. I mean, you can't you can't do that, right? You have to invite students into the project of learning. And that means that you have to recognize the legitimacy of the ideas they're bringing to the table. So that, you know, you can engage in the project of critique and and probing.
⁓ but to shut them down at the outset, that's not teaching that's preaching. ⁓ and, ⁓ yeah, shouldn't happen. Shouldn't happen.
Brent Valentine (13:58)
And then what do you have to say to the people where the or the idea that yes, they might agree with everything you're saying, but they love the idea that American universities have produced all this great knowledge and creation. But currently we might have more of these quote like bad teachers. So like the university system in an ideal world is how you describe it.
but we've drifted too far and there's more bad apples per se. And that's part of the issue. Cause I think we could always cherry pick examples. see it left and right in the news. And then when that's the only thing discussed, that's the ideology or the belief that gets adopted by whoever is looking at the university system without being in the university system. But there's an element of like, those...
Grant Cornwell (14:32)
Yeah.
Brent Valentine (14:54)
negative experiences or where people are stifling true diversity of thought, is that occurring more frequently now?
Grant Cornwell (15:01)
I don't know. I don't know. don't want to speak to the teaching and learning cultures at other universities. I've only served three. I've been on a lot. mean, and I have to tell you that from my own experience, ⁓ faculty care a lot about their professional integrity and that includes ⁓ teaching, not preaching. And so I don't know how to sort through this guys. ⁓
because ⁓ there is truth to the critique. And you just, you just have to give that up at the outset because this rap
wouldn't be invented out of nowhere, right? I mean, if this kind of stuff wasn't happening, I don't think anybody would make it up. So you kind of have to say, okay, this stuff is happening. Let's own that. And let's get after it. Yeah.
Brent Valentine (16:01)
I one good example I've seen, at least in some of my professors, they will say, this is what we know through literature. Hard stop. This is what I believe now. I will grade you based on what we know, how you argue and articulate these thoughts. But if you want my insight, here's my insight. I think that's been a pretty effective way.
Grant Cornwell (16:12)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, that's
No, that's an effective thing to do. You know, sometimes I hear faculty say something like this. You know, here's what I do. I teach from ⁓ from sort of multiple perspectives. And and this is the center faculty speaking. And I've been successful when students don't actually know what I think. When I've been able to represent multiple points of view, and they leave the class, you know, not knowing.
where I come down because it's not about what I think, it's about encouraging their thought. On the one hand, that sounds pretty noble and pretty right. On the other hand, we do call them professors. We don't just call them teachers. And a professor is somebody who professes. And presumably, they profess from a position of scholarly expertise, right? So if you were in a course in physics,
and the professor is opining on what they think about ⁓ the governor, then, you know, they're not being, they're not, they're not inbound there, right? They're not inbound there because their expertise and what, what their job is, is to bring their scholarly expertise to the learning objective. ⁓ And so if they find themselves drifting into, you know, news of the day,
They're using the bully pulpit of the classroom ⁓ to extend their own points of view. And that's kind of out of bounds. ⁓ And any kind of professional review would call that out of bounds. On the other hand, if a professor, I mean, let's just say a professor is teaching a course ⁓ in feminism. And the professor introduces a body of literature, and maybe there's a ⁓
range of points of view, you know, and that at some point they say, you know, well, and by the way, you know, I think that there are good grounds to defend women's rights and sort of here's what I think about women's rights and, in this course, I mean, I think that that's totally in bounds.
Keller Kramer (18:35)
Another, I think, key part of the culture of the university isn't just the relationship between students and professors, but the actual student body. And I think that we've seen, I think, you know, we've talked to other professors at other UCs, and they seem to have a similar view is there's a lot of cultural identity clubs that try to be spaces, and I think successfully are spaces for
different communities, whether that be the Korean American group, the Pacific Islander, African-Americans, they have groups to be with each other, but they're advertised or organized with the students in a way that kind of segregates them from other groups within the student body and doesn't really invite in otherness to it. in an effort to support diversity on campus, in a lot of ways, it just silos people.
to the groups that they're most comfortable with. And again, I don't know if this is a solution type of question, but what are some ways on your campus or ways you have seen success in trying to integrate these that it's not taking away from those voices, but actually bringing them together to build a genuinely united student body?
Grant Cornwell (19:51)
Yeah. Keller, think this is a kind of both and answer because on the, you know, let me start with the premise. I think the premise is to
The richest context for education is diverse, right? So ⁓ it's the actual process of living and learning with people who come from different backgrounds, who have different identities, who see the world differently. That's actually where the learning takes place. So campuses need to be places where people from all backgrounds and nationalities and faith traditions and races and ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds, right?
We're best when we can bring all of those into conversation. to that point, you don't want to see identity groups ⁓ exist in silos, because then you're not achieving the whole point. So that's an issue. On the other hand, I think it's also...
I'm going to make a little segue here. ⁓ You know, we've, ⁓ we've been hearing a lot about DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion. And there's a critique that's come out within the academy about how DEI has been framed that I think has merit. One, one I think really good thinker on this is, is Yasha Mauck, Yasha Mauck. And ⁓
And what his analysis is that, you know, the DEI movement that's been going on for a couple decades, you know, there are good intentions there, but there's a kind of reductivism to it, where it kind of parses everybody's identity into either being an oppressor or oppressed. And that that's very limiting to the human experience and the human construction of identity. And there's another thinker who I encourage you to really ⁓
seek out his name is Ibu Patel. He is the president of ⁓ interfaith America. And he says, you know, DEI has kind of gone off the rails. And we'd like to think in a different framework. And it's called pluralism, where, you know, a community should celebrate the different identities within it, and recognize that that that is how it becomes rich and strong and, and, and an affirming
of everybody's identity. So ⁓ to make that happen, at least the way the argument's gone is, you know, to have a healthy pluralism, you also have to have spaces where people can join with those whose identity they share and celebrate that. Whether it's, like you said, Korean American or evangelical Christian or, you know, pick, you know, I think it's also fine for people of a
similar worldview to get together and celebrate their belief in that world worldview. But then it's also important to have a public square where everybody's mixing it up.
Brent Valentine (23:08)
Yeah. And I think a trend that at least Keller and I have talked about in our own lives that we see is, let's say we get this very diverse group of people together all in the town square ready to have these ideas. I think too often we're seeing people tie their identity to a lot of the beliefs they have. So then if we do start to have a conversation on beliefs or worldviews that we hold, it almost comes off that
you're attacking not just the idea but the person themselves. How do you work through helping people separate those two so we can be like, hey, I respect you, where you come from, all of these things, but we would need to have a separate conversation about some of the impacts of those ideas or like, is this the best idea? Can we move forward and only attack the idea but not say the person?
Grant Cornwell (23:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. mean, you know, at some point you're going to ask a question so hard that I just can't answer it. You know, ⁓ I mean,
Keller Kramer (24:08)
You
Grant Cornwell (24:16)
It's really hard to change your mind. And yet actually that's what higher education about is, is to have everybody involved in a project of changing their mind. Because if your mind is not changed in four years of collegiate study, what the hell you've been doing? You know, I mean, have you been paying attention? Have you been taking new ideas seriously? So, but, but, you know, having said that it's really hard to change your mind.
because beliefs and worldviews are deeply rooted in experience ⁓ and in the stories you've been told as you've grown up. And those are difficult and painful things to dislodge or to look at objectively. And that's just, you know, that that's just a human reality that makes that makes ⁓ teaching and learning really hard. Again, we get back to this question of safe, safe spaces. That's why the project is not safe, because things that you hold dearly are going to be questioned.
And that's kind of what we're here to do.
Keller Kramer (25:15)
what role do you think the university has in, I guess, encouraging that separation, but also advertising that change as something that's painful? Because I think a lot of, again, just talking about our experience today, a lot of the framing that Davis uses is like, come as you are, we will accept everyone, but there really isn't any conversation about the fact that you're expected to change and that it's expected to be a battleground of ideas. Like that really isn't.
part of the discourse at all. And I think it's hard to say that on the onset because that can turn a lot of people off, but that should be kind of the norm. But I think that idea is kind of viewed as a unique idea, at least currently among the people we talk to. Most of the universities, or people we know at university, I don't think would describe the classroom as a forefront of really challenging each other.
Grant Cornwell (26:13)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, ⁓ that gets back to sort of, I mean, now, now I think now we kind of have to talk about this moment in student mental health ⁓ and sort of the post COVID era. And ⁓ I do think now that there that there is a kind of
Almost, ⁓
timidity about challenging students because they're so fragile. ⁓ And coming out of this out of this global pandemic, which you guys experienced, I experienced, you know, but, ⁓ but I have to say, I think that that's, that's really wrong headed. And I also think that what I've seen is ⁓ the first class to return to campus after COVID. I mean, they were full on marked by that, okay, they didn't know how to be college students.
You know, I remember they'd get back to campus and they would be sitting in their rooms, lying in their bed with their phone because they wouldn't get out and then like engage campus. They didn't even know how to be college students. You know, that's past. I mean, I don't know about your campus, but at Rollins College, mean, the students that showed the first year students that showed up on campus this fall, they were fully ready to be engaged with the college.
and they're joining student organizations more than they ever have, and they're out in the public square, and the dining hall is vibrant and full of life. And so, yeah, I mean, you can't approach the mission of higher education as saying, we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. Because it's not going to work.
Brent Valentine (27:53)
Yeah. Can you
give a little bit of insight into the University of Chicago? Because I think they're one of the best models at kind of saying, promoting these types of ideas.
Grant Cornwell (28:04)
Yeah. Yeah, well, so I got my doctorate at the University of Chicago and I it was very influential for me. ⁓ And ⁓ Chicago does have I mean, actually called the Chicago principals. ⁓ And I remember several many years ago. ⁓ The undergraduate Dean wrote a letter to first incoming students saying, Hey, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna mess things up, you know, ⁓
what you're going to encounter is going to be difficult. It's kind of some of the things I've been saying. it got a lot of, it really caused a firestorm because ⁓ some of higher education was saying, well, isn't that terrible and insensitive that he would say that? And other parts of higher education were saying, no, no, no, that's exactly what he should be saying. ⁓ But there's another way in which Chicago, University of Chicago principles are really in play right now.
It's this concept of institutional neutrality. ⁓ And it's a really interesting set of ideas that I think is important to the conversation that you and I are having. ⁓ Because I don't know how it goes at UC Davis, but on every campus I've ever been at or seen or been on, there's a lot of call for presidents to make statements. Like anything, anytime anything happens, it's like, well, a president needs to make a statement about this. You know, I am really austere.
about making presidential statements and it's because of the Chicago principles. Chicago principles say that institutions of higher learning should be neutral on issues because they should be arenas where those issues are debated and explored and where it is an arena and a contest of ideas. And as soon as the president speaks and says,
this college or this university stands for this set of ideas, it shuts down that inquiry. And ⁓ so that's why I don't think that presidents should be opining on world affairs or national affairs. mean, universities do not have a foreign policy, okay? They ought to be places where foreign policies are explored and critiqued. ⁓ Now, what's happening going on right now,
is in a different category because the government intervention into academic freedom and freedom of inquiry. I mean, I did feel called to speak and make or sign a statement because that business that is our business, right? ⁓ You know, and if I, I felt called by the duty of my office to take a stand there, because if I can't stand there, then we stand for nothing. So there are times when
presidents need to make statements, but they're very few and far between and they pertain to the integrity of the mission of the college and when it's attacked.
Brent Valentine (31:07)
Could you just give a little bit more background on what the statement was?
Grant Cornwell (31:10)
Yeah, well, yeah. It was a really, it's been a really interesting moment. ⁓ Because a ⁓ month or six weeks ago, ⁓ Rollins College hosted a conference on John Dewey, liberal education and democracy, you know, where the central question was, ⁓ you know, it's kind of been a premise in the American in American history.
Keller Kramer (31:12)
you
Grant Cornwell (31:41)
that part of the role of going to college is becoming an educated citizen prepared to participate in a democracy responsibly, right? And so this was, that's right at the heart of John Dewey's thought. So this ⁓ was a conference that called together ⁓ national higher education leaders and professors interested in those questions, the idea of education for democracy and what does that look like? What does it need to look like right now?
And you know, we came together, this has been planned for over a year, but as it turned out, you know, by the time we came together, this whole question about the state of our democracy was very much in play. At the same time when the critique of higher education was really coming to a peak. So that's, that's what everybody really wanted to talk about. And it was sort of at that conference that higher education leaders went away and said, you know what, what we heard is that we need to take a stand and we need to say something about the sanctity.
of freedom of inquiry and freedom of expression to the mission of the university. That statement came out, I don't know, this week. The Association of American Colleges and Universities put it out to be signed. And I was a very early signer because I was in the conversation that helped frame the document. And now there are over 500 presidents that have signed it and it's growing daily. 500 presidents, that's a big number.
⁓ you know, and it's everything from Harvard and maybe UC Davis to Rollins college and, ⁓ you know, small liberal arts colleges, ⁓ big public research universities. Cause this is something that I think, you know, ⁓ university presidents are of like mind that what's happening right now, you know, you're messing in our, in our playground, you're messing in our sandbox and, we can't accord that.
Brent Valentine (33:35)
Yeah. And then on that messaging from the universities, do you think
the counter arguments or like the push back that they are currently giving would be stronger if there was a honest conversations like, yes, we've messed up in these ways, but what you're doing is taking it too far and will actually limit our ability to like have the robust academic environment that probably the whole country wants.
Grant Cornwell (34:07)
Brent, I think you are fully prepared to be a college president. Because I think that's exactly the stance that we should take. I think we need to own where we have fallen down on our duty or have come up short on our own values and principles. And then we need to go to work on fixing our own house. ⁓ Yeah. But yes, it's, you know, it's not a very good trope or, or, or, or,
Keller Kramer (34:11)
You
Grant Cornwell (34:37)
metaphor, aphorism, you know, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But you know, the idea is, you know, you're washing a baby and the water gets dirty. And so because it's dirty water, you throw the whole thing out, you know, and you got nothing, right? ⁓ There is, there is sort of a baby here that's worth keeping and nourishing and cleaning up and, you know, making happy and getting rid of the dirty water is also important. But just for right now, you know, the attack is like,
bring the whole house down. And that's just a mistake.
Brent Valentine (35:13)
Yeah, certainly.
Keller Kramer (35:14)
Among university presidents, is there a discourse around the funding structure of universities and like where they're getting the, guess, I don't want to say like capacity because it's not the full picture, but like part of the reason that academia has become more accessible in the last 50 years is because government has become more more involved in funding, whether that be grants or fast fund, things of that nature.
Is there a conversation around shifting to private funding or how do you deal with that relationship when obviously you don't want government telling you what to think and you don't want them infringing on your ability to have freedom of thought, but there is a dependence that exists, especially at a school like University of California, full dependence. ⁓ We don't exist without the government. ⁓ How do you deal with that?
Grant Cornwell (36:08)
Yeah. Okay.
Okay. There's a, that's a, there's a whole bunch of really important issues in there. And I want, I know I want to, I want to distinguish between funding and support for student access and funding and support of research and knowledge production. Okay. So let me take the latter one first. The fact is that the research enterprise of the American university,
is and should be ⁓ funded with state and federal dollars ⁓ because it's creating new knowledge that is advancing society. There's a public good there that the public is investing in the creation of new knowledge, new understanding ⁓ that, and you you see it in the pure sciences, you see it in medical research, you see it in social scientific research, you know, and you want to see it in the arts and humanities too, because that's what
makes a civic culture. So ⁓ I would always argue that ⁓ there is room for, not just room, there's a duty for public investment in research. ⁓ Now, let's talk about access. You're right that the federal government ⁓ does invest significantly in making universities accessible to students that wouldn't be able to afford it without federal dollars.
You know, it's, mean, I have to say, you know, it's not a lot really Pell grants. ⁓ Just let me make sure everybody who's listening knows what I'm talking about. So ⁓ the federal Pell grants are college financial aid available to students from the lowest socioeconomic ⁓ background.
You know, I don't know exactly the figure, but it's like if your combined income for your family is under $50,000, then you sort of you're eligible to get some federal funding to go to college and university. I think that's a good thing. And I think that it's in the public interest to fund access to higher education. Why? We'll go back to our conversation, what we've been talking about. We've been talking about higher education, preparing an informed citizenry to support an advanced democracy.
and then let's go to sort of the payoff of having a college degree. Every couple years, people say, boy, is it really worth it to go to college? Well, let's look at the data. Every time they re-examine the data, the ROI, the return on investment of going to college over a lifetime is well over a million dollars. Every time they look at it, it's like, ⁓ it is definitely worth it to go to college. So again,
I think it's in the public interest to fund those from less fortunate backgrounds to get a college degree so they can be more fully engaged in the economy and moving forward the knowledge economy that fuels the global economy. So I think that there's an ROI to it. But if I listen to you carefully, Keller, you might have also been kind of tiptoeing towards, well, if it's public money, then don't the agencies of
public money have some say over what goes on on campus? ⁓ And I won't attribute that to you, but I can imagine somebody sort of making that line of argument. My answer there would be to go back to what we've already talked about, is that nobody who is sane and sober would want that because it corrupts the very mission of what you're investing in. ⁓ It's as though, I mean,
Do you think that the senator, do you think a senator knows better than a professor what should be taught in a literature class? I don't, you know, so.
Brent Valentine (40:08)
I think there's like...
a good room for like generic free market principles within universities where the government doesn't top down say you go teach this. It's schools say we have this ideology. This is what we teach and they get more students. Like, and I think that type of thing the same way the government shouldn't tell the citizens or the citizenry what to think. You go vote for them. So the people of those universities vote.
by attending, by having these conversations within the university. And I feel like that's where the discourse could then have an influence on any individual university within that context. you like...
Grant Cornwell (40:51)
that's
I think that that's a really interesting line of thought. ⁓ You know, it's a free market of ideas too and topics and subjects and you know, students are going to vote with their enrollments. I mean, which is which does happen, right? I mean, it's certainly been happening over the over recent history. ⁓
Brent Valentine (41:10)
Yeah.
And then do you see a world where if we're rethinking how we fund certain students to go get an education so they have the biggest impact on society later, I think there's a large argument from predominantly the right of you're funding all these feminine studies majors, like that's useless in our economy.
Could you see a place where it's like, all right, maybe we don't fund certain things, but we fund predominantly STEM majors. So if you want to go pursue this, you can go pursue that with the support of the government because there's a more clear ROI for the broader society with that type of encouraging those certain disciplines.
Grant Cornwell (42:00)
Yeah, I think that that is a fair and legitimate point of view and stance to take. ⁓ At the end of the day, I think it's short-sighted and isn't supported by the data. Because, ⁓ you know, right now, what states want to do is look at, is assess the value of a major by the starting salary of graduates, 20 21 year old graduates, right?
And they're really keen on this as though they're like, really onto a good idea. It's not a very good idea. It's not a far sighted idea because you know, ⁓ it is true that certain majors will enter the job market, ⁓ at, a higher salary point than other majors. But if you look down the road and if you look at like what the degrees are of the CEOs and entrepreneurs and the, and the, and the captains of capitalism, guess what? They were history majors.
You know, there were philosophy majors and ⁓ the ROI of majors ⁓ evens out over time, but it tends to skew towards majors in the humanities and social sciences actually. ⁓ yeah, that whole idea of let's look at what different majors earn upon graduation. Now, listen, I understand that too. I do. And I have to tell you, know, as a college president, I've been going to the Capitol Hill
you know, for 18 years and talking to senators and congresspeople and, you know, ⁓ because they're all in the, they're all engaged in the project of getting reelected, what they want to know is, are your, are graduates of your colleges ⁓ getting jobs in my district? You know, if so, I'll support that. If not, you know, then I got to do something else because I'm just trying to get reelected. So.
There's a certain built in self centeredness and short sightedness and looking at the ROI of a college or university degree. ⁓ But if you dig deeper in the data, it shows that the investment pays off for all majors.
Brent Valentine (44:13)
Yeah, and then one other thing I wanted to point out before we get more into the value of the liberal education is the ROI isn't just financial. It is all the intrinsic metrics, all the people you meet. I think there's even data showing that college educated people live longer and healthier lives. There's a way more robust picture that you can't easily quantify into a hard metric like first year salary. ⁓
Grant Cornwell (44:40)
Yeah,
well, there is that data. ⁓ College graduates do live longer, do live healthier lives, and they report being happier because they're more socially engaged, they have richer social networks. And, and it is certainly true. I mean, you guys know this because you're college students, and I know it because I've dedicated my career to college. ⁓ But the learning that takes place is really a
And it's an immersive 24 seven undertaking. It's certainly not just what happens in the classroom. It's what happens through the cultivation of social relationships. It's what happens ⁓ on the athletic fields and in music studios and in the dining hall. ⁓ you know, it's the totality of a student's experience as a college student that really ⁓ is what it means to go to college. That's sort of uniquely American.
You know, I will say in the European system, it's much more about ⁓ specific training in the different disciplines and you sign up for that when you enter college and that's all you study. And the only people you know are people who are in that discipline. So it's a whole different thing. But the American project has always been about, again, know, reproducing democracy. ⁓ And that calls for this more immersive experience that we have here.
Keller Kramer (46:08)
Yeah. And I think we touched on it a little bit earlier about, you know, the salary ranges being posted for different majors. And I think that is kind of like a big carrot for most students that they're looking at is they might not be picking something that they're actually interested in. And I certainly know I've talked to people like in CS, for example, that they will flat out say that I don't care at all about this, but that starting salary, it's undeniable. You know, and I think a lot of people here, you know, they come in and they say, okay, I'm going to be a doctor.
of work and find they have this career attached to their life and they pick their studies accordingly and I think as a result miss out on or even kind of like judge other majors as being oh that's humanities are lesser like uh you study you read like okay we can all read um how do you they can't but um how do you encourage I know one of the words you use and you're writing with soul crap
How do you encourage that in a student body to find the value in the things that might not be immediately material, but have over a long period of time, they will make themselves clear?
Grant Cornwell (47:20)
Yeah, you know, Keller, first of all, I mean, I do want to say that I respect the motivation of students who ⁓ who seek a better life through through through access to higher socioeconomic status. I mean, I respect that because a lot of them are making a lot of sacrifices to be here. Their families are and they're trying to move to a different level, live different quality of life. And I I'm humble about that. It's like, look, I get it. I respect that. ⁓
But what I've always noticed is that, ⁓ you know, students would come to me and they'd say, well, listen, I think that what you're teaching is, really amazing and fascinating. And it's really enriching my whole universe. But you know, my, my parents want to make sure that I major in business, which I find deadly boring. But you know, ⁓ but you know, I need to get a job when I graduate and
⁓ and the recipe for disaster and not getting a return on your investment is focusing on something you don't care anything about. Like that's a non-starter. ⁓ and I've always encouraged students to say, okay, look at, do that thing, which you think is practical, but also do that thing that you love and see where it goes in the end. Because I think that what really matters in college and there's data to this, there's a lot of data that says.
⁓ you know, your future prosperity is not, is not your major. There is not a tracking of majors to, prosperity. There is a tracking of seriousness of purpose, passion, and academic success in whatever you, in whatever you study. If you do it very well, that opens doors. So, look at, you can be a C business student cause you don't care about it.
or you can be an A, know, ⁓ art history major because you're passionate about it and you're gonna do better to do great work in that thing you're passionate about. I just think that's the way it works.
Brent Valentine (49:29)
Yeah, I think that's where the liberal education could really step in because it allows people to test out all these different areas and maybe they don't find their passion right away, but they might find something they're damn good at and that then facilitates a passion that develops. Could you expand a bit on the uniqueness of the liberal education and how it serves those purposes?
Grant Cornwell (49:54)
Yeah, you know what I really think Brent is that.
A real project in higher education is to, is to equip college students to take on the biggest problems that the world is facing and to be able to make a contribution to their resolution, to be able to get in the game. And there is no problem out there that can be solved through a, through a single discipline or way or way of thinking. You need a broad education that is sort of, you need to understand a problem and its history.
It's economics, you know, the politics of it, the science and technology behind it. And so the world's problems really call for liberally educated people. ⁓ I actually think that a really relevant and great ⁓ framework for liberal education in this era are the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. These are 17.
of the world's biggest problems agreed upon by the world. And every one of them requires a kind of liberal education approach because pick one, pick anything. And you're not going to be able to solve it through only one discipline. People are going have to bring more to the table. And I think that that's really what we're in the business of doing is equipping college students to get in the game for all the problems that you're inheriting.
Keller Kramer (51:24)
Are there ways that Rollins College approaches the liberal education that are maybe different or unique than some of the other liberal arts universities out there?
Grant Cornwell (51:34)
Well, I think every liberal arts college has its approach to curriculum, and Rollins has its approach to curriculum. And our general education track, the courses that we require of all students, ⁓ they are about interdisciplinary problem solving. ⁓ And what we try to do in the senior year is have students ⁓
take their major field and the kind of the research methods that they learned in their major field, and then take on a bigger issue and apply it, ⁓ where they bring together all of their education into trying to understand and articulate a serious global issue or global problem and proposing ways forward in solving it. And I think that students find that quite satisfying. And there's like a light bulb that goes off. It's like, ⁓ boy, you know, I'm working on this global problem.
That course I took when I was a sophomore in ⁓ political science, that really came in handy in me understanding how this thing is working. So I think that that's a really good model.
Brent Valentine (52:44)
Yeah. And kind of talking about those global problems, we saw somewhere in one of your articles about the third great power shift and like how, we're experiencing right now. Could you give a little bit of context to what that is and why like this is so important in today's age?
Grant Cornwell (53:02)
So you're going to have to say more, Brent. have to remind me what we're talking about here.
Brent Valentine (53:06)
Cause, Keller, do you want to start on this?
Keller Kramer (53:08)
Yeah,
I think from my interpretation, what the reading was saying was kind of in the context of like global powers of the US shifting away from being the hegemonic power, the reality of China, possibly India coming in it being more of a bilateral kind of international agreement of powers with the reality that the US is the weakening power, how American citizens and American students can position themselves in a way that
they can realize that maybe the Western ideas aren't gonna become the leading global ideas, that ideas from the East are gonna have to come in and not just isolating to those two, but positioning in a different way where isn't that, I'm from America, we are the best. It's from America and we had a thing that was good, but now we have to work to kind of come up to a new reality.
Grant Cornwell (54:00)
Well, you know, I got to, I have to sort of happily confess to some humility there because, know, through a lot of my career, I have been ⁓ writing as a global studies person and as a person who really is interested in, in the global economy, ⁓ in the global cultural economy, in the intersection of cultures, in the increasing intersection of cultures. ⁓ But now,
guys, we find ourselves in this moment of history of a renewed nationalism, right? I mean, this this is mega, right? Make America great again, pull back from all of that global engagement. And, you know, put up those walls. And it's America first. And I, you know, this is a world I didn't see coming. I thought that there was an inevitability to globalization. Really, I really did.
And I honestly, I still do. think that like this is a, think the, you know, Martin Luther King says that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. And I also think that the arc of the.
the arc of the political, economic, cultural universe is long, and it bends towards globalization. I think this retreat to nationalism is ⁓ reactionary. And I'm not talking about ⁓ American nationalism. I'm talking about what you see in many different contexts around in geopolitics right now. This is a moment of resurgent nationalism. ⁓ I don't think that
the movement of people and money and culture and ideas, I don't think it can sustain nationalisms really. I mean, I'm way out on a limb here and there'd be a lot of people that are gonna say, you know, but that is what I think. I think inevitably, inevitably humanity is becoming more globalized. Inevitably, the economy is permanently globalized. And I don't think that there's any return to nationalism. And also I'll just say it, I think that's a good thing.
You know, I think that the more we do business with people from other cultures, the less likely it is we're gonna bomb them. You know, I mean, I just think that world peace also is going to require and affirm a kind of global approach to the human endeavor.
Brent Valentine (56:36)
Yeah. And I think I would agree on the standpoint of this long arc, like with America taking this nationalistic approach at the moment, all we're doing is removing ourselves from that longer arc. Because like China has positioned themselves all across Southeast Asia, all across Africa, increasingly in Europe. It's just, we don't have the hegemonic power that we used to have.
So taking us out of it, we're just taking ourselves out of the race and we're going to watch everyone push forward without us now. Because we've, through what, the 2000s, like 90s, we allowed, we helped China to come to where they are. And now they have the ability to continue without us. So it's just this national syndrome approach from many countries just seems short-sighted.
And this idea of bringing industrialization back, it's like, why? Where are we going with this? And I think that's where, in the higher education system...
It's a unique opportunity to learn about all these different places. Whereas I don't know of a single college that doesn't have some sort of study abroad program where you can get out there, interact with these people, and you can just learn so much more. Because when you break bread, it's like the simplest thing. You can actually, in these different places, understand, ⁓ we're really not that different. And I see where the differences are. We can respect it and move forward together. I think that's
kind of some of the stuff you talk about with the level education.
Grant Cornwell (58:14)
A hundred percent Brent.
It's interesting you say breaking bread because the president of the student government association at Rollins college has started a program called breaking bread. And it's specifically about bringing people from different backgrounds and different faith traditions around food and different cultural foods, but breaking bread and recognizing one's common humanity across the table, even though you come from different perspectives. So there's a lot to be said for that. You know, and speaking of globalization and food, mean, where would we be?
Brent Valentine (58:22)
Nice.
Grant Cornwell (58:44)
without, I mean, look at the American diet, man. It's thoroughly globalized and thank goodness, you know, it's fantastic. know, Asian foods, Mexican foods, African foods, Caribbean foods, ⁓ you know, Japanese foods. What if we were just stuck with like macaroni and cheese, you know?
Keller Kramer (59:03)
Tragedy. One
of the other things we saw you write about, it's guess like a slight deviation ⁓ from the topic of globalization and like economic shifts, but you talked about the idea of establishing a factual based worldview. And I think that does something that's really interesting because obviously in the last, let's call it 10 years, the idea of
facts has become increasingly more subjective. the idea of a university telling you these are the facts, these are the things that they don't waver, this is what reality is, I think has become very unpopular. How do you think through delivering those facts and I guess coming to a consensus of from both sides or maybe more than both, but all sides, what facts can we use objectively to
Grant Cornwell (59:38)
Yeah.
Keller Kramer (59:56)
give to the student body so that they can take that out into the world and navigate in a way that they're not blinded by, especially in the wave of nationalism, not blinded by their Americanness, but are informed.
Grant Cornwell (1:00:08)
Yeah. So let me just talk a little bit about the history of ideas, because this post truth era thing, ⁓ it has a really interesting and kind of twisted history. You know, it was probably, I'm going to say,
30 and 40 years ago ⁓ that sort of, ⁓ well, a whole philosophical movement emerged of what's called postmodernism. And the sort of central tenant of postmodernism is that, ⁓ you know, there are no facts ⁓ because every assertion is, ⁓ you know, made within a framework of presumptions that can't be grounded
in objective reality. And so it's really all just about these narratives. ⁓ little did the listen, I'm, you know, I'm old enough that I was in that movement. And sort of like, I used to think that that would those were kind of interesting and cool ideas. And now I see how they've been kind of weaponized, right? That now, you know, you can have ⁓ politicians just offering alternative facts. And just like, if I
You know, if I say this, if I say this untruth enough, it becomes truth. And to me, I mean, that's just a terrifying kind of Orwellian ⁓ situation. So I do think that an idea of professors in higher education coming to say, no, no, wait, we didn't really mean that. No, there are facts. You know, I mean, like there is an objective reality out there and there's things happening and we can.
We can study it and we can report on it and we can record it and we can prove it. So, you know, that whole thing about postmodernism, you know, just kidding. We didn't really mean it. Can we take that back maybe? Because this is kind of the consequence of it. But there's a really cool book out there and maybe it's getting, maybe it's getting a little old now. Maybe it's five years old. It's called, it's called Factfulness, Factfulness. And it's written by a Swedish demographer.
Keller Kramer (1:02:03)
Thank
Grant Cornwell (1:02:24)
And, ⁓ and he wrote it cause he said, you know, ⁓ media feeds on the negative story because, because it's, it's, it's, it's titillating and people like to hear sort of disastrous things happening. And so the media just wants more readership, more listenership. And so they pick that story that is, that, that is more negative.
And that then becomes kind of a worldview. And the argument of this factfulness book is that, and by the way, that's completely counterfactual. If you look at the facts of the trajectory of sort of global demographics, there's a lot of really good things that have happened over the last century or two centuries or five centuries that are demonstrable. And we really need to lift up the actual facts.
as a contraposition to ⁓ sort of what we're fed by the media. And if you ever feel yourself getting depressed about the state of the world, I want you to just go read Factfulness, and you're gonna learn. If you look at ⁓ child mortality rates globally, if you look at ⁓ literacy rates globally, if you look at ⁓ sort of the distribution of
of wealth and income at the lowest, at the poverty level globally. What you'll see are trend lines that are very positive. You know, there are many few people, fewer people, and a much lower proportion of people living in abject poverty globally than there were two decades ago, three decades ago, four decades ago, but we never hear that. ⁓ So yeah, I'm a new believer in facts.
Brent Valentine (1:04:18)
Yeah. I think part of being able to admit when you see or when you're encountering facts is just having like a broad baseline level of exposure. And do you think that's where the liberal education can come in? Because like if you're getting exposed to all these different things, now when a fact is presented, it's like, ⁓ I've heard of something along that lines. I could see how that could be true. Do you think that's a unique position of just being like
widely educated.
Grant Cornwell (1:04:50)
I do, I do. And I think maybe our professors across the curriculum should maybe spend more of their time just having the students have that sort of set of tools in their toolbox that that would be a good thing to do.
Keller Kramer (1:05:07)
Then a big part of universities and where students choose to go is the reputation. And that fluctuates year by year, but generally, you know, that is something that needs to be maintained, I think, first and foremost for university. As the president of Rawlins, how do you think through managing the culture of the university and, you know, maintaining a curation of what it means to be a student that gets through Rawlins?
Grant Cornwell (1:05:34)
Yeah.
Yeah. So, ⁓ I spend almost, I spend almost no time at all thinking about rankings, ⁓ because, because rankings are actually, they purport to be a ranking of the quality of education. And I'll tell you right now, they are a ranking of institutional wealth. If you look at a correlation between the ranking and the endowment size, it's basically just, you know, who's got the dough, right? ⁓
And what I think it's important to do is to look at outcomes. at Rollins, we have something we call the proof project, where we collect all the little pieces of proof of what our students are doing with their education out there in the world. And that's where we can prove our value proposition. It's not our ranking, which is fine, by the way. We're the number one ranked school in the Southeast region. It's like, OK, well,
But we can tell stories about what students are doing in the world with their Rowan's education. And ⁓ it's the compilation of all of those many, many, stories that really proves our value proposition. And that's what I care about. What's the evidence that a Rowan's education is actually improving our students' lives over the long run? Well, it's there, and we collect it, and we share it.
Brent Valentine (1:07:02)
No. I think in order to get the most quality out of your education, you need to be curious and that will facilitate the rest. How do you go about like trying to curate curiosity?
Grant Cornwell (1:07:16)
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that that's what really good teachers do is they is they make they can make I mean, they make it they're so passionate about their subject area. They can they can present it in a way where students are like, Wow, I never knew that this was here. Like this is such an interesting set of ideas, or that's such a powerful ⁓ book or, or this, this theory is just kind of really changing the way I see the world.
That's all about quality of teaching. That's all about how it's conveyed. ⁓ Because every professor loves their discipline or they wouldn't be doing it. They're crazy about their particular discipline. And the good ones are able to convey that enthusiasm ⁓ that if you learn this theorem or if you learn this formula, it's going to blow your mind and change your life. This is amazing stuff that we're talking about here right
And I actually think that human knowledge across the full spectrum, I mean, it's just full with amazing sources of insight and analysis and understanding and new ways of seeing things and new ways of doing things. And that's what great professors do is they invite students into that process of curiosity.
Keller Kramer (1:08:38)
Yeah, 100 % agree on that. I think we talked a lot today about some of the issues on higher education and the current environment with relation to government involvement. What gives you hope for the future of academia?
Grant Cornwell (1:08:52)
Students, absolutely 100%. I've been a college president for 18 years and professor for 40 years. And 100%, what keeps me going is, if I have down days and then I have a group of students over for dinner and they talk about what they're doing and what they're thinking, I'm just continually sort of inspired. Your generation is awesome.
Your generation wants to get in the game and has ideas and ways of thinking about it. And your generation is, ⁓ is. Impatient in a healthy way. It's like, okay, listen guys, you had your turn. You kind of need to get out of the way because you've really kind of messed things up. We're ready to go. ⁓ and I find that, delightful and inspiring. ⁓ and so it's absolutely what, what gives me hope is every generation coming through and coming out.
and putting their learning to work in the world.
Brent Valentine (1:09:55)
Yeah. And on that note of like this generation, our generation getting in the game, I think there is an element that needs to be addressed of sure. We might think that a lot of things are messed up or the older generation like imposed improper things, but there's still a lot to be learned from the older generation. How can we get into the game while still respecting like those who've come before us?
Grant Cornwell (1:10:20)
Yeah, well, it's the humility.
to enter thinking that you don't already have it all figured out. ⁓ And also, you know, the openness to
being able to discern wisdom when you hear it. I mean, it's one thing to be knowledgeable. It's another thing to be wise. And I think wisdom does take experience, and it's typically hard won. And
And I, yeah, I just think that ⁓ where I see, I want to shift the question a little bit and talk about leader, talk about leadership, you know, where I see leaders fail and students are future leaders. Where I see leaders fail is through arrogance. You know, show me a leader who thinks they're the smartest people and the smartest person in the room, and I'll show you a leader who is on a road to failure.
out of arrogance and hubris. ⁓ And I think that we have some leaders that we can see in public life right now that are guilty of that. ⁓ I think that real leadership begins with listening and listening to, mean, opening the way to new ideas and good ideas. You the best ideas are not mine. The best ideas are the ones that are brought to the problem.
and the leader is the one who clears the way for them to ascend. And that just calls for entering every leadership situation with a sense of humility ⁓ and openness.
Brent Valentine (1:12:10)
Certainly.
Keller Kramer (1:12:11)
I think that might have been covered in your last answer, but if you were to be talking to a first year student right now and they were wondering, you know, any advice you had to entering academia, what would you tell them?
Grant Cornwell (1:12:23)
Yeah, so I want to begin with some really basic things, right? Go to every class and hand in every assignment. I mean, I'm serious. mean, you know, first year students, typically, you know, when they when they fail to thrive, it's like, yeah, I just kind of stopped going. Well, okay, so let's begin it like a real basic like go to every class, do every assignment. That's a place to start. ⁓ This is the second would be ⁓ to
Keller Kramer (1:12:29)
You
Grant Cornwell (1:12:52)
Don't have your mind made up yet. You know, a first year student should arrive on campus with some ideas about why they're there, absolutely, but also an openness to discovering ways of knowing and ideas that they just didn't even know were out there. ⁓ You know, I went to college knowing I wanted to be a doctor because my mom told me I did, right? So I was a biology major.
And I did the biology major and I did fine, but I was not satisfied. And so I started taking courses in other disciplines, know, history and politics and religious studies. And, and then I found this thing called philosophy and I was like, okay, these questions are the ones that I have a burning interest in. And I dug in deep there, you know, and when I graduated as an undergraduate, I had a double major in biology and philosophy and,
You know, my parents were like, well, what are you going to do now? And ⁓ so ⁓ I actually ⁓ had no, didn't know. ⁓ And I spent sort of the year after graduating, looking at the possibility of med school, looking at the possibility of, of, of, of biology graduate school, but also looking at philosophy graduate schools. And then I found this program at the university of Chicago that had a specialty in the philosophy of biology. And I thought, damn, well, clearly this is what I have to do now.
But I stayed open because when I got to Chicago and really understood that the questions that the philosophy of biology was interested in, they were deadly boring. That was like, I'm actually not interested in that at all. So I did a bunch of other stuff and you know, it kind of worked out. So stay open, you gotta stay open, right?
Brent Valentine (1:14:37)
Perfect. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. It's been fun.
Grant Cornwell (1:14:42)
Well, Brent and Keller, I love what you're doing. You're very good at this and the fact that you're doing it, I think is really important at this time. ⁓ So ⁓ I'm gonna find a way where I can listen to more of your podcasts and hope that this was interesting to you and that, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. All right.
Brent Valentine (1:15:01)
That's way it was.
Keller Kramer (1:15:01)
Thank you.